Gustave's Parentage

[ErikaLeroux]

This thread is for discussing Gustave's parentage or to be more specific the announcement that Raoul is not Gustave's dad but Gustave's dad is actually "Mister Y.".

Discuss away!

[TransylvanianRose]

I dislike the idea of Phantom as Gustave´s father. I dislike the idea of Christine as adulteress. I dislike lack of more exciting drama than Who-is-Gustave´s-father?

[droney]

I have to agree with TR on this one; I dislike the idea of the Phantom and Christine having a child, especially when it's out of wedlock. Setting aside my Christian morals, I just think it was a poor plot point.

The main problem I have with it is that it was done out of wedlock and happened at a one night stand between the Phantom and Christine. If they really did love each other, then I think things would have turned out a little differently. But it didn't; they had a one night stand and voila. Christine's pregnant.

Also, it makes Christine look really bad. She goes and seeks out the Phantom the night before her wedding, and willingly has sex with him, knowing that she was to be married to Raoul the next day. It's adultery. She cheated on Raoul, and in return, she got a child. What's worse is that for 10 years, she lied about who Gustave's father was.

The announcement at the end of Love Never Dies about the Phantom being Gustave's father was done just so the show would have a little more drama. It's a little unbelievable, if you ask me.

Definitely a major downside of LND.

[TransylvanianRose]

Exactly: it´s adultery, Christine cheating her loving, self-sacrificing husband-to-be with the dangerous criminal who tried to kill the husband-to-be when husband-to-be tried to save her from the aforementioned criminal... whaaat! He killed Buquet and Piangi and how many other people, too!

[droney]

Exactly! Setting all of the bad things the Phantom did aside, Christine was still cheating on Raoul. I'm doing some research now as to how things were back then as far as adultery goes. I mean, I don't blame Christine for keeping it a secret; given the circumstances, I would have done the same thing.

Even so, I find Christine to be one of the most corrupt characters in LND.

[TransylvanianRose]

This is one of the reasons I can´t take LND seriously as "real" sequel - this is not Christine, this is not Raoul, these characters are pod people or possessed or something.

[droney]

Yes, yes. However, people change over time...Even though I love Raoul, I suppose it is possible that in 10 years' time, he could become a drunk. And as for the Phantom, it's possible that in 10 years he could have learned to control his temper or something. But Christine...she made that choice long ago. It was extremely uncharacteristic of her, I think. And there's nothing in the world that can excuse it.

[TransylvanianRose]

My problem is that these changes - bad Raoul, lying adulteress Christine - seem to be just attempts to sell E/C pairing. And extremely boring attempts.

[ErikaLeroux]

Ditto! Making Raoul a drunken idiot is only about the oldest trick in the Phantom fan fiction book to sell the whole Erik/Christine pairing and using it in the sequel only shows even more just how "bad fan fiction" this thing is. I'm a huge E/C shipper but let's please keep things logical people! Really the only way to effectively sell the E/C pairing in the end and remain period accurate is to kill off Raoul { VIABLY } and have Christine, later in life, say I dunno run in to the { VIABLY changed Phantom } and fall in love with changed Phantom and he fall back in love with her or something like that. I realize that in ten/twenty-six years the character changes in the sequel could happen but some of the changes are just plain absurd { for instance why would Meg go after the dude who stalked her BEST FRIEND and made Christine's life a living heck and do it pretty much the same way the Phantom did it with Christine? } and then the other ones that could be used to the advantage of a sequel aren't explained as to why they've happened in the first place.
I like the whole idea of Christine having a kid in the ten/twenty-six long years since the original stage show but for the love of all things Phantomy make the poor kid Raoul's kid NOT the Phantom's. Grrr!

[droney]

E/C pairing, yes. And basically, the sequel became an E/C pairing (to me, anyway) the moment "Beneath A Moonless Sky" was even mentioned. I don't really have a preference to E/C /R/C E/OC, because I've read a lot of fan fics that have Raoul and Christine together, as well as ones that have Erik and Christine, or Erik and an original character.

But really, LND is just one big E/C shipper show (LOL I wrote "stripper" the first time around...) aimed to make those E/C shippers happy. I'm not even against an E/C official sequel. But they could have done something different to make Christine fall in love with the Phantom (although, granted, I thought LND did a great job of adding the "Ah, Christine!" scene after the LND title song, because it gave me the impression that both the Phantom and Christine got lost in their music and that that is one of their strongest bonds together).

As for the Phantom changing in order to make Christine fall in love with him...I don't think any Phan would really go for that. I mean, look at us! Most of those who are anti-sequel (and even some who are pro-sequel, and the intbetweeners like me) are already upset because the Phantom in LND has changed (less angry, less manipulating, etc.). I doubt we'd really be happy with a change like that, especially if it was one of the main plot points.

[ErikaLeroux]

I'm not really strictly any one shipper. It depends on the version but I'm mostly an E/C shipper or an E/ other woman shipper and even then I'm well aware Erik would need to work on some things before getting married. lol I have nothing against Raoul he's just not my type/speed/whatever you want to call it.

Yeah I have nothing against a sequel where the Phantom gets the girl but please do it in a VIABLE way and not in a way that not only makes Christine { and other characters } look bad but totally takes away from the Final Lair scene in the original. You can have the Phantom get the girl in the sequel without shredding the Final Lair scene in the original and LND does not succeed in doing that. The PLOT is why I don't like Love Never Dies. I have nothing against having a sequel to the Lloyd Webber stage show but if you give the sequel a crappy plot there is no way in heck I'm going to support it.

You can change the Phantom without changing his soul { if that makes sense } because as much as a lot of us love him to pieces that doesn't mean we approve of some of the things he did in the original stage show { like killing Buquet and Piangi } and I would hope most of us would realize that he would have to change certain things like that before ending up "getting the girl". Does that mean he has to suddenly be a saint/Mr. Goody Two Shoes/male version of a Mary Sue? NO!! *shudders at the horror of it all* Have him stand up there on stage with someone obviously annoying him and show the audience that he would really love to string that person up by their toes and strangle the living daylights out of them but he knows he shouldn't. Have him snap at someone { and apologize later of course }. Just don't make him a pansy arsed wimp who stands there and tells Meg "we can't all be like Christine." I'm sorry but the real Phantom would have had that gun out of her hand faster than Lloyd Webber could throw another "beautiful" in to the score instead of standing there trying to reason her out of it. Christine might try to reason her out of it but the Phantom would just strong armed the gun right out of her hand and been like "forget it. You're not killing Gustave. You're not killing yourself. You're not killing anyone. You're getting handed over to the police." or something like that. There are ways of changing the Phantom into someone who doesn't go around murdering people at will without making him unrecognizable and the sequel doesn't succeed in doing that. If the Phantom were any more unrecognizable in the sequel he'd be sipping tea and talking about the weather with the ballet corp back at the opera house { after of course rebuilding it and upholstering everything in pink with tons of pretty ribbon and lace *vomits at the thought* }.

[TransylvanianRose]

I thought same scenario than you, Erika: LND should have begun when Raoul is dead and he lives in Christine´s treasured memory, and THEN introduce E/C romance.

[ErikaLeroux]

Yes exactly! While I may not be a huge Phan of Raoul I don't really want to see him dead either but it's the only viable option to have Erik and Christine end up together in a sequel and at least he'd get to die with some dignity instead of stumbling around on stage yelling drunken slurs in a plot point being used to get the Raoul bashers out there to instantly like the sequel. I may enjoy the occasional "haha Raoul ya big dork" fun poking at him but I don't see the need to full out trash the guy. I may prefer the Phantom to him but I don't have any huge problems with Christine ending up choosing Raoul { so long as Raoul is the one she truly loves which we know she did }. At least if Raoul would have died before the sequel and lived on in Christine's cherished memories not only would his character not end up being brutally raped but Christine could go on to later marry the Phantom without pretty much cheating on Raoul and then dumping him too for the Phantom.

[bricabrac]

Well, if they wanted to make LND a show in which Christine probably really loves the Phantom more than she loves Raoul (or is at least passionately drawn to him), I think they must have thought they needed to do something to Raoul so that Christine is a more sympathetic character. It's bad enough that she cheated on Raoul just before their marriage. I've read fans calling her a slut for that. I wouldn't, but they must have thought that for her to still be very much attracted to the Phantom ten years later---after he went off and left her pregnant---they had to make her marriage, and thus Raoul, look bad.

Although from what I've read, actors have lifted the character beyond the way he is written, Raoul is still very much just a plot device. ---And Gustave is also a pretty common device I've come across in fan fiction, in if I remember correctly, in Phantom by Susan Kay, and of course in Phantom of Manhattan.

In Love Never Dies, if you remove the "Who's-the-Daddy" sub-plot, there is even less dramatic tension than there is with it. It's been said from the first reports that not many audience members really think Christine is going to choose not to sing, choosing what Raoul wants over what the Phantom wants.
Phantom Daddy & Gustave also give the show a touching (for some) moment at the end that sends fans out of the theater sniffling.

So for LND, I think they pretty much had to have the Phantom as Gustave's father.

I don't mind this part of the plot in fan fiction or professional novels, but as I have said many times in various places, I very much dislike having it as the official sequel to Phantom of the Opera. That is a whole different matter. It's hokey, it's cliched, and I resent it's being foisted on fans and the public as ALW's what-came-after.

[ladydechagny]

In my mind, Gustave could never be the Phantom's son. Just because he's got musical talent, it does not mean he's the Phantom's son. Christine's father was also a musician, so that's where the talent could come from. And just because you've got a talent that your parents doesn't have, does mean they are not your parents.